Did Supermassive Black Holes in Quasars Form Before Those in Galaxies?

[Terry Giblin]

Edwin Hubble, 1929, formulated his hypothesis that the universe was expanding.

George Gamov, in 1940’s, predicted the back-ground radiation, which was accidentally discovered by Penzias and Wilson, in 1965.

However in 1969, Lyndon-Bell, laid the foundation that, at the heart of every Galaxy and cluster, in the universe, there is a black hole.

Super massive black holes are found in every Quasar – the oldest, most distant and most powerful objects, in the entire universe, numbering in the thousands.

According to current models of the Big Bang, Quasars were formed approximately, 3 billion years after the big bang, and galaxies were formed approximately, 5 billions years after the big bang. (Edited to correct the timing mistake)

This implies that super massive black holes, found in quasars, were formed, before black holes formed in Galaxies – How can, this statement, be true?

Unless of course, you look at the big bang from a totally different perspective!

Image a Super Cloud, made from 10 or 11 Dimensions, in a vacuum.

In order to create the universe, we now live find ourselves in. There are three basic, requirements of the out come from the big bang, - space and time, leptons (photons, electrons) and quarks.

Hence the phase,

“I heard a big bang and shock the cloud containing 10 dimensions, but could only find 4 dimensions (space-time), photons, electrons and 6 quarks” - Terry Giblin

The largest source, of quarks, electrons and photon are from black holes, of various sizes.

Extraction of energy from a black hole, can extract up to 29% of its rest mass, from processes described by Penrose 1969, Harrison 1976, Lovelace 1976, Blandford and Znajek 1977, Lovelace 1979, Kafatos 1980 and Phinney 1983.

If in regions of this 11 Dimensional cloud, where large activities of this nature, were occurring, we now refer to as quasars.

This could cause a chain reaction of quarks, electrons and photons – self generating and multiplying. - Just like the start of a lighting bloat in a thunderstorm cloud?

Forming a Super Massive Black Hole, a Quasar, exploding all over the ‘universe’, inside this Super Cloud of 10 or 11 Dimensions.

Quasars are the most distance objects, in the universe, that we can see.

Which also implies they are at the outer extremes of our universe.

We therefore have super massive black holes, at the extreme of our universe, the most powerful objections in the universe, creating massive explosions of electrons and photons, which in turn inducing further quark creation.

As already discovered and proven, the best way to ignite a big bang, is to start with lots of symmetrical implosive devices, similar to quasars, surrounding the core or nucleus.

Are the Galaxies expanding away from the big bang or moving faster under the influence of the quasars.

Are the Quasars still exploding, and the ‘shock waves’ are still heading in our direction or has the implosive finished and we are now riding on the return journey, after the second explosive big bang has occurred?

Are we running away from the explosive big bang or being dragged down the plughole, by the implosive quasars bangs.

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Terry Giblin Big Bang Theory

TG = OCS

 

[ranyart]

You may not be aware of a theory by Paul Valletta, its called the; Theory Of Entropic States, or T.O.E.S.

Everyone needs Toes, be it if you stand on the shoulder of giants?..or you are a Ballerina performing at a Swan Lake Ballet!

 

[EL]

According to current models of the Big Bang, Quasars were formed approximately, 3 billion years ago, and galaxies were formed approximately, 5 billions years ago.

This implies that super massive black holes, found in quasars, were formed, before black holes formed in Galaxies – How can, this statement, be true?

?

And the rest of the thread is also ? for me...it doesn´t make sense anywhere...

 

[russ_watters]

El is right: the timescales are waaay off. Have you seen HUDF?

 

[Terry Giblin]

Thank you for pointing out my mistake, I hope form the time, 3 and 5 billion years, you understood what I was trying to say. - I have rephased the time sequence.

 

[Nereid]

The timing is still not in accord with recent observations and models; both quasars and galaxies (proto-galaxies at least) have been observed at z > 6, and some as high as z ~= 10 (galaxies hold the record, BTW, not quasars).

Perhaps you could give us some predictions? For example, what will analysis of the HUDF produce? What about the second year of Planck data?

 

[Terry Giblin]

Was the 'Big Bang' start by an implosion or explosion, or both?

Hubble is correct the universe is expanding, but the reason for it, is questionable?

It's the uniformity of the back ground radiation which scares me the most, but not unexpected.

The physics is a simple extension of known theory of from a gas cloud to a black hole, but on a universal scale.

Where's the rest of the proof?
What predictions does the big bang theory predict or solve?

It all started with a hand full of photons, electrons and quarks - now we know that, does help us change our perspective of the big bang and other similar possibilities?

 

[Nereid]

*SNIP

What predictions does the big bang theory predict or solve?

*SNAP

1) The cosmic microwave background radiation
2) the primordial abundance of nuclides: H, D, He-3, He-4, Li-7
3) the distance-redshift "Hubble" relationship

These are the three pillars; there are a host of others (less direct); e.g. large scale structure, 'dark age', ...

 

[Terry Giblin]

I've already mentioned the points which you raised.

Do you wish to elaborate?

Can you tell me something which I could not work out using common sence?

The universe has got colder, the process of forming the elements are already known and the universe is expanding. - no surprise there.

 

[ahrkron]

Can you tell me something which I could not work out using common sence?

Anything that behaves differently from the environment in which everybody's brain is trained from birth.

Examples:
1. how current-carrying wires interact,
2. gravitational light ray deflection,
3. cryogenics
4. superconductivity
5. lasers
6. special relativity effects
7. superfluidity
8. The mass of the W and Z gauge bosons.
etc.

 

[Antonio Lao]

In the past, there were two cosmologies (expansion and steady state theory). Now, there is only the standard model cosmology: the Friedmann-Lemaitre-Robertson-Walker cosmology and is popularly known as the Big Bang. The steady state theory was killed by the discovery of the cosmic background radiation.

But the Big Bang cannot explain the properties of the singularity, if there are any. At the instant of singularity, all hell break loose. Nothing makes sense.

 

[Terry Giblin]

Big Bang or really Big Bang

Can we all agree we are not living in a steady state universe.

If I am not mistaken the current theories behind the big bang can also be used to calculate, say a supernova explosion or quarsar according to mass and energy. ie the big bang is a bigger version of a supernova.

So what information or knowledge have we gained, we can estimate a big explosion.

Now consider that in light of the new information from the M-theorem, with its eleven dimensions and our knowledge of spacetime and from quarks to quasars you may start to see a picture forming in the mist.

"I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" - ask the photon, he said it first.

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Terry Giblin Big Bang Theory

TG = OCS

 

[ray b]

" This implies that super massive black holes, found in quasars, were formed, before black holes formed in Galaxies – How can, this statement, be true? "


a quasar is a big black hole forming [ center of a galaxie sized big]
ie; several star sized black holes interacting and comeing togetter
once the hole is formed
the show is over and the quasar is over
and you have a center of a galaxie sized big black hole

 

[Terry Giblin]

So which came first galaxies or quasars?

" This implies that super massive black holes, found in quasars, were formed, before black holes formed in Galaxies – How can, this statement, be true? "


a quasar is a big black hole forming [ center of a galaxie sized big]
ie; several star sized black holes interacting and comeing togetter
once the hole is formed
the show is over and the quasar is over
and you have a center of a galaxie sized big black hole

3 billion quasars

5 billion galaxies

After the Big noise

But I assumed galaxies would form before quasars its called evolution or a rip in space and time, but that's another story.


"I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!" - ask the photon, he said it first.

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Terry Giblin Big Bang Theory

TG = OCS